Interview with Metal Mike
of Angry Samoans

Lead singer Mike Saunders talks about the Angry Samoans' role in the invention of 'hardcore.'

By Thom White

Metal Mike Saunders is the lead singer of The Angry Samoans and has been for a long time. If you are one to peruse LA Weekly concert listings, you will have noticed Mike and original Samoans drummer Bill Vockeroth playing gigs at clubs like the Troubadour and The Anarchy Library every few months. They do an exciting and catchy live show that always includes an on-stage dance contest. Original Samoans Todd Homer (bass/vocals) and Gregg Turner (guitar/vocals) are no longer in the band, however; Todd left the group in 1988, while Turner last played with the Samoans in 1991 before fleeing California to teach in New Mexico.

Prior to publication of this CITIZINE exclusive Metal Mike interview, ex-Samoan Gregg Turner threatened to sue the magazine (and parent company T. Dubbs Enterprises) if any libelous claims from Mike went to print about questionable legal maneuvers and business decisions by Gregg over the years while he was captain of the band. As an experienced punk and pop music commentator, Mike Saunders had plenty to talk about regarding the Angry Samoans' place in the LA punk scene, and he did not dwell on (nor even mention for the record) antipathy that continues between Turner and the rest of the band. The interview was conducted at the home of our gracious host Dee Dee, and she put her two cents in on a couple occasions.

My questions are in bold. Metal Mike's answers are in plain text. Dee Dee's remarks are in italics.

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Tell me -- you originally wanted to start a band and you wanted to be in Austin, Texas in 1977. What was happening in Austin? What was so great about Austin?
Well, my brother [Kevin Saunders, original guitarist in Angry Samoans] and I had the idea all along that we were gonna do a band together -- a real band. We had played in high school and the high school album was cut when I was 17, he was 13 -- minus the two other members of the band. But this was pre-Beatles trash rock, and the 14 songs we sequenced wound up on the back of a Triple X CD. It exists on CD.
Which -- where do you get that?
Uh, it's uh, cuts 7 through 20, 14 tracks on the Surf City or Bust CD (1999). I believe about 1000 exist.
Okay.
We played together. We both played drums and/or guitar, and when I was living in California, summer of 1973 through -- May '73 through June '75. In the fall of '73, the first time Blue Öyster Cult came out, I met Sandy Pearlman of the Sandy Pearlman / Murray Krugman production team. Played 'em the songs in the same way the Dictators had and he said, "Bring me a band. We'll do a deal." That's how The Dictators got signed. They cut the demo tape with Sandy's money, he took it to CBS and he signed them, so he was on a roll since Blue Öyster Cult was breaking. Was there any kind of musical scene in Southern California in early 1974? Nyet, nyet, nada, kill me now.
No?
Nobody. And the people you ran into, their level of comprehension was about five levels south of Fast Times at Ridgemont High. It was a wasteland. So after two years of working an office job out in California, which was at the little mail order shop for Star Trek Enterprises --
Where in L.A. -- where in California did you live at the time?
6621 Yucca #2.
Oh, Hollywood? Okay.
Yucca Street is a couple blocks --
North of Hollywood --
It's a couple blocks west of what later became the punk rock Canterbury. Two or three years before the Canterbury became the Canterbury, I was --
Now what was the punk rock Canterbury? That part of Hollywood Boulevard?
No, it was the apartment building where the huge concentration of future punk rockers --
Ahhh!
I was in the very same, two blocks over, years earlier. So like anyone older, I preceded that stuff. Nothing going on. So I threw in the towel, went back to Arkansas in June of '75, picked up the ten courses for the extra degree that was useful for a career which became the accounting career. So, had connections. Yeah, so, so in 1974, the number of musicians motivated or interested in playing Stooges-type hard rock were zip, as reflected in the Stooges' record sales which were zip.
Okay.
You know, they couldn't give the Raw Power album away.
Okay, so then you were in Austin in 1977 --
No, I graduated Austin in May '73. My little brother [Kevin], who all along, we were gonna congeal in some place together and of course have a band. We just needed two more conscripts, two more suckers. Of course, we needed songs, but at that point, we had a repertoire of songs. Although we were, like most musicians, 50% clueless. We had no real efficient game plan. So I picked up my accounting degree in Little Rock the same time he picked up his B.A. in Austin. And Austin was our town of choice. Actually, I did one -- I could only get one job interview there at a CPA firm there -- didn't get it because my clothes, my suit wasn't up to scratch.
Describe the scene in Austin at that time. What was so great?
It hadn't happened yet.
Oh, but you --
It was like minutes away from happening unbeknownst to us. No, actually, he [Kevin] was there in the spring though -- he was there through May '77. So Kevin saw the very first rumblings of the Guadalupe Drag punk rock scene.
Okay. Which were what bands?
The Huns were the first band.
Okay.
So the name of the band would have been different, the style would have been different. It would have been some garage-y punk rock, psychedelicized Austin, Texas, punk rock band in '77. But now, couldn't get a job there, so the second option was California. Came out to California and he [Kevin] wasn't talked out to California till one entire year later. I just went out for the purpose of -- well, Arkansas versus California, at that time was no choice, a no-brainer. Went out. A friend of a friend hooked me up with the corner of a guy's living room and a mattress. So I was paying a guy twenty bucks a month to crash on a mattress, and to throw my stuff in another corner, what little I owned, while I job-hunted for the first accounting job to start the career which was a full-time career for 22 years from '77 on. Richard Meltzer and Gregg Turner -- Richard Meltzer has his moment of realization at the Weirdos' show, which I was there. The Weirdos and Devo. Devo played before the Weirdos. The Weirdos headlined over Devo which was in --
What month?
Either October or real close to October '77. I was having none of it. I hung around the D.J. table where Greg Shaw was playing the 45s and I found one tune that met my specifications of quality which was a Standells B-side "Mr. Nobody." I was having none of the punk rock thing. Um --
What was it about punk rock -- What was it about the Weirdos and stuff that you didn't like compared to the Stooges?
Didn't, didn't translate yet. Like the rest of America, I was slow on the wagon. I didn't, uhh, digest the Ramones' style where it made musical sense till early '78. So if I didn't get --
And then you got addicted to it after that?
No, it just became another style of music I enjoyed. The only -- the first band to make any sense at all to me or my brother, as far as the '77 punk rock sound, was Generation X. They had crankin' guitar solos, lots of drum rolls, you know, stuff that translated to us musically. You know, too much from the hard rock and before, during, after the early heavy metal scene from '71. The whole attitude is a band that can play, a band that can kick ass and play. So the Ramones' lack of drum rolls, guitar solos, anything that was familiar territory to us was -- you know, we had like ten years of music -- thirteen -- in '76, we had twelve years of buying records to --
What was your impression of the Ramones when you first heard that stuff? I mean, what did you -- you just thought it sucked?
Yeah. The singer and the -- Well, okay, the singer is debatable. Not the greatest singer. The tempos didn't make any sense. The production on the first album is cheesy, and the tempos -- Okay, what else was new at the time? Kiss. Compared to Kiss, the Ramones didn't make any sense at all, you know, some […] first group didn't have this backlog of musical history from Elvis through to Kiss and Aerosmith to, you know, feed it into. So that tells you a lot about why the Ramones didn't get across to Middle America. It was an alien language. That's how radical they were to someone who had heard or owned every major label hard rock and heavy metal record that had ever been put out. Pure alien turf.
Okay, now another beer -- another --
So, so, the claim that they reinvented rock 'n' roll, to my mind, is completely true.
But it took you a while to realize it, or to appreciate it?
No, just for the style, for the tempos to make sense. For tempos that fast to make sense. There was nothing like it before in the history of music. And this was not an uncommon split, the pro and con on the Ramones, because the Ramones had big problems selling records on the first two albums and beyond. They had tons of publicity. The record company could not -- the song that hit the wall was "Sheena is a Punk Rocker." Hit song, didn't get over, stalled way, way down in the charts. America was not ready for the Ramones.
Okay, now another band that I've heard, once you're in L.A., is that Fear was a very big -- made a big impression on you.
Yeah, yeah. What I've seen Lee [Ving, lead singer of Fear] say in interviews in modern times is that their attitude was "We can play."
Like Kiss.
No, but you know, big sound, tight band, excellent musicians. You know, the metal frame of mind was a completely different attitude than the art school attitude. Like, "We're being arty, blah blah blah. Wow, we're new wave punk rock." Where the starting point for a traditional band coming out of hard rock or heavy metal is, "We can fucking play." You know, "Watch this." Not anything fancy, but just the power behind it, the muscle behind it.
Okay, so they -- when you saw them, they had some of these aspects of punk but they brought something totally better than these other punk bands?
Yeah, someone like me would call it the 'suburban mentality,' as opposed to the art school or inner city mentality, the arty mentality that's --
What's the suburban mentality?
Kick ass. Kick ass.
Okay. I wanna talk about the changes in the scene. Now, I've read one time, I think it was Greg Ginn who said that a lot of these bands -- from '76 to '78 was really when they were -- like Fear for example -- was when they were really the best and that on until like '81 or '82 was kind of -- it wasn't as good as what was happening in '77 or '78.
Usually people use the phrase " '77 to '82" cuz so many records came out in '82 that weren't funded. You know, when you're putting out your own record.
Well, like a lot of these bands didn't actually put out a record till '81 or '82, but they'd been playing for five years and by the time they put the record out, things had changed kind of, maybe ...
Well, exactly. Let's say the Fear album or our second album are a representation of the sets that were being played live one or two years -- or many of the songs for years and years. […] points out that there were no major labels sniffing around besides the Dickies' record contract which was the only one -- the only -- The Suicide Commandos and the Dickies were the only bands west of New York that got a major label deal. So it was totally do-it-yourself.
Can you tell me about --
Umm, but you know the sequence of the scenes were then Boston or New York had big scenes totally exploding in '82 or '83.
While L.A. in 1983 …
Oh, totally on the way downhill by '83. You know, the vibe of the scene, the -- I couldn't even give you a capsule on my take on the L.A. scene 'cause I was out of L.A. by July 1980. I moved north [to Oakland] for a job change. But the violence was everything it was cracked up to be.
Now in the late '70s scene, I want your impression of the major players. Now Dangerhouse Records, what was with them?
10! 10! Thumbs up. [holds thumbs in air]
Who were the guys in Dangerhouse? I mean, I've heard about Black Randy and three of them -- Dave Brown and Garrett -- Pat Garrett.
And the third guy is the guy who plays on "Let's Get Rid of New York." Anybody who plays on "Let's Get Rid of New York" [by The Randoms, Dangerhouse's first single] is a musical god in my opinion.
Okay, how did that song affect L.A., "Let's Get Rid of New York", that single and everything?
Well, those weren't widespread records, those were just barely into the thousands. Who knows, maybe only a thousand were pressed of The Randoms' 1-2 -- In those days, you could sell 2,000 of a 45 fairly easily 'cause Jem had distribution onto the record counters at a lot of the chains. No, it was just like the Craig Lee's classic, "We Don't Need the English." Just one man's opinion, voicing the sentiment of many.
Okay, what about Slash Magazine and Slash Records. How did they --? How did they start?
Slash Magazine. I can't put my comment into words. We were at a party once early on, just 'cause there was a party going on, and we're the suburban kids from the [San Fernando] Valley, you know, guys in my -- guys that later became the Samoans. And that was a different world, the Hollywood arty Slash Magazine people. The Flipside people -- ten thumbs up.
Okay, they were from the South Bay, right?
No, Whittier.
Really? Okay.
Serious outsiders. You know, geographically outsiders. [To Dee Dee] Wouldn't you consider Whittier to be an outsider mentality? She's nodding ten times, oh yeah.
Okay, how did Rodney [Bingenheimer] become such a leading figure in defining what was popular?
He had a radio show in primetime [on KROQ 106.7]. He had reasonably decent musical tastes.
What were his favorites?
Qualifications for a D.J.? None. Zero, nada, nyet. Of course, what is a D.J.? The guy who has a ratings share.
Okay, what about -- Another big one is the whole Decline of Western Civilization film --
If I were torturing war prisoners, a Rodney -- what do you call it? -- air check, you know, meaning a tape of the show, would be great torture material.
Uh-huh. Repeated over and over again?
You just pull the music out so you've got nothing but the spoken material.
What was this December 1978 show that you guys disliked so much [that inspired the song "Get Off the Air" dedicated to Rodney]? What happened on that particular show?
The Christmas show. I was living on Kitte-- just a block over from Victory and Coldwater Canyon. Oh, I keep saying Kitteridge Street -- 12967 Kitteridge. And the guy in the biggest bedroom at my house was in a very strong power-pop, new-wavy power-pop band called The Tremors in '77 and '78. And the Kessel brothers were going to be on the Rodney show, David and Dan Kessel, who were producers. And so one of his band's tracks was going to be played eventually before the wishing hour. And Rodney's -- unbeknownst to me, two other members of the Angry Samoans, Christmas week '78, are over at Gregg Turner's house, Gregg [Angry Samoans guitarist/singer] and Todd [bass player] hearing the very same show. And we were there just 'cause there was nowhere to go, nothing to do. I don't know, we were just there in Dave's bedroom. He's holding court and it was -- If I used my memory and dredged up the five worst radio shows ever, that was a contender. He went on a Phil Spector rampage, playing stuff that later wound up on Phil Spector comps, maybe MFQ tracks or whatever. Modern Folk Quartet, or is it 'Quintet'? It was really torturous.
The music and his -- ?
Whatever they -- and the Kessel brothers might have been playing tracks they actually had produced. It was the accumulation of all things unlistenable about the show. So we were not inspired by any political motivation to come at it politically. It was a reaction to one show that just triggered -- Oh, that was the show where Rodney on the ROQ jumped the shark.
Jumped the shark? What does that mean?
It tipped from being pretty annoying to like completely heinous. And then we put lyrics down separately to that fact and I got a hold of their lyrics and consolidated into mine. And interestingly enough, the music had already been written. The music was sitting within two songs that VOM had never played or recorded. So I had music sitting around that matched the words perfectly. It was a pre-fab job.
So when did you first play the song live?
Oh, immediately. The minute the song was written, it went right into the set, 'cause the music was good. The chorus of "Get Off the Air" was a VOM song never played live called "Kill for Kicks." Lyrics unprintable in public, it insults all races on purpose. And the verse was from a VOM song unrecorded and never played live called "Born to Butcher." Part A and Part B fit the words exactly, so the song was the song that wrote itself.
Did it, uh -- Was there a lot of public acceptance of the song? Did the crowds kind of get into it? Was there a general sentiment?
We were just a support band on cheesy club gigs. Uh, only after we played more and more gigs locally, especially heavy in the fall of '79 anywhere and everywhere around town. And then Rodney sent his famous first letter threatening a lawsuit for punitive damages. Then the story spirals. Todd went on the radio show, Richard Meltzer's, and he was either encouraged or allowed or egged on to threaten all kinds of people.
On the air.
You know, it was like a Howard Stern show routine. I remember hearing it out of P.J.'s [Angry Samoans guitarist] house where I was teaching him the set, so this was mid-summer in 1979, laughing hysterically. It was funny shit. So that's what commenced the wrestling match.
What was the 'wrestling match'? I didn't know there was --
Just the Rodney versus -- No, the allegorical wrestling match.
In the papers --
It was a typical wrestling match.
So Rodney, he would use his sway to kind of hurt, or like, slow down the progress of bands that were like --
He had blacklisted bands before. This is a known fact. We were nothing new under the sun. I mean, bands that said anything derogatory about him in print. Bands that became famous later.
Such as …?
Fear. He fucked with Fear. We thought they were a cool band, so if you fucked with Fear, you were an asshole. The interview in Slash Magazine was a -- When Fear put out their first 45 ["I Love Livin' In the City"], shortly after, there was a two-pager in Slash Magazine and Lee [Fear's singer] refers to Rodney's domicile, "and it ain't no blah blah blah." He was just being Lee, it was funny shit, and Rodney took total offense to it and fucked with them big time. So he told us what the ground rules were for fucking with Rodney. Not the smartest career move to make. The song was a song. Like, big deal. It's only a song.
Okay, another from that -- So then a major thing that people still see now is the movie that is of the L.A. -- the Penelope Spheeris one, The Decline of Western Civilization.
Yeah.
Now was there ever any chance that you guys were gonna be appearing in that, or was that, how was that ...?
Count up, count up the number of bands from Slash Records that are in that movie.
X, Germs. I dunno, who else?
Here's the thing -- Catholic Discipline -- Slash Magazine.
Yeah, I didn't like that part of the movie. I always skip that part of the movie.
That was a -- You know, so there was a pecking order that was followed.
It's kind of the Slash Magazine -- They were working closely to kind of make the --
No -- yes. Yes, half of it came out of Slash Magazine. There was the -- there was a tilt to it. You know, I would ask why the hell isn't Red Cross shown, footage of their playing? Although by that point, their line-up had changed.
Now, Greg Hetson was originally in Red Cross?
Yeah, um, Chavo [later of Black Flag], Ron Reyes was the drummer, Greg Hetson the guitar player. And that of course splintered at the end of '79. Yeah, so Red Cross's line-up had changed already. At the point in time -- the movie was filmed in the spring of '80 so probably Red Cross weren't playing right then. Yeah, you know, who knows why she chose the bands she chose?. There were several factors that came into play. You know, popularity was obviously one of them. Uh, Black Flag exploded at the beaches right at the time the movie was being made, so that was obvious. Uh, Fear were a big known quantity on the scene, and the best live band, captured well on film, captured very well on film. I remember when we saw the movie in Frisco, when they ran the first screening, I stood on my chair at the end when Fear came on, going "Yeah, alright." It was like the complete geographical vindication.
Okay, now another thing, and I've seen you mention about this, about, you know, when The Weirdos, when punk came out in, uh, in '77 or '76, and it was kind of a slower, like really rockin' really hard. And then you say in late '79, that's when it really -- there was the speed up and bands started -- 'Cause I noticed it especially by 1981, the records coming out by then, by the Dead Kennedys and the Misfits -- and Minor Threat was totally different but -- bands that had been around before that are suddenly faster than they had been.
And the other factor with many of the bands -- shorter songs. Meaning as opposed to a two-minute, three-minute song, like in the style of the UK punk bands. Meaning it's shorter, faster, meaner. So that's one way to categorize it. Okay, yeah, the Germs record [G.I., 1979] came out, uh -- Lemme backtrack. Okay, when our band did our musical, deliberate musical changeover, when we got a total punk rock guitar player in the summer of '79.
P.J. ?
Yeah, when the founding member, my brother [Kevin], quit, went to grad school back east, and we started gigging anywhere and everywhere heavy in the fall of '79. The four bands, plus or minus, you know the Germs as a live act don't qualify as a live act. If you saw the Germs, you would have kind of obliterated --
I've only seen them in the movie and they don't look very good in the movie, but they must have been better some other time, right?
No, no. The record is a miracle. The record is one of those miraculous happenstances, you know? No one knew that guy [Pat Smear] could play guitar like that till they put out a record. And they wound up getting banned many, many places.
Okay, even though they had Rodney's seal of approval, right?
Uh, yeah, the Germs must have committed enough offenses of enough various types to get themselves -- Yeah, funnily enough, the Germs' manager --
Nicole [Panter]?
Nicole had managed VOM. VOM was one of the bands she managed in seventy -- early '78.

CONTINUED ...

Interview with Metal Mike of Angry Samoans
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