Interview with John Doe of X
(Page 2)

Who were the ones at the time that were left out, that would be a lot bigger and more well-known now if they had been in there? Like the Minutemen?

I'm not sure that they were playing then. They might have started, but it came out in 1980. It came out right after Darby killed himself. So it's gotta be the end of '80, beginning of '81, something like that. Bands that should have been included were Plugz, which became the Cruzados. The Weirdos -- they just re-released some stuff of theirs.

I'm actually interviewing the singer tonight.

Oh, John Denney?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I spoke to the bass player [Cliff Roman] about a month ago. He's really nice.

That song -- whatever it's called, "mm-biddy-um-bop tonight."

Yeah. "Helium Bar."

I heard that on some compilation. It's an awesome song!

One chord!

Yeah! I couldn't do that. It's a fuckin' great rock and roll song! I mean, that would, if it was recorded better --

It had that weird phaser on it.

Yeah, but if it was recorded better, and really as punchy as they could do it live, that would rival "A-Wop-Bop-A-Loo-Bop-A-Wop-Bam-Boom," you know? Just full-on rock and roll. Anyway, them. The Go-Gos were playing then. And this band called the Alley Cats.

Were the Screamers around then?

The Screamers, yeah. And they were incredible. But you see, they were much more artistic, much more arty. Not violent, and much more kind of wacky -- especially the Weirdos and the Screamers. The Plugz were much more musical and almost rootsy. The Alley Cats, same thing. And they were really -- The Go-Gos obviously. I mean, everyone saw the Go-Gos and thought, "Oh my God, they're gonna get signed immediately." Then years later, they got signed to that crappy IRS label. Whatever. It was much more diverse than what The Decline of Western Civilization: Volume One shows. And once that whole Orange County and the really truly violent crowd came along, people got disillusioned and the scene began to sort of fragment. It's weird how short-lived those scenes are.

Do you think that scene would be remembered as much today by people if not for that movie?

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah? Okay. Yeah, I guess a lot of great records did come out of that.

I don't know if great records, but I think as time goes on, everyone wants to comb through what's happened in the past. You know, the New York scene and the L.A scene and the London, or the England scene, all get sort of picked apart. And there was no movie for the English punk rock scene or the first wave of New York punk.

Oh, that's true. Yeah.

So in that way, I guess we're kinda lucky they have all those performances on film. However, there was Urgh! A Music War, which they should put out on like extended DVD so you can see all the really terrible performances. I think they had 50-some bands.

Yeah, when I rented that one, I probably liked five of them. I really couldn't get into a lot of those bands, I'm afraid.

Right.

Decline I could get into all of them except maybe Catholic Discipline. I guess they were alright. Kind of a strange choice to have on there.

Yeah.

Let me see -- I saw a quote from you in another interview that I really liked, where you were talking about -- you first did a country record because you wanted to be more "real," and now looking back, you were just like, "Well, punk rock is just as real" or something like that.

Yeah.

Have you ever made a record that you felt like, looking back, you felt like it wasn't really where you were at the time? Or do you always stay true to --

No, there's nothing I've done that I think was really false or calculated. They were true for where I was at the time. I think everyone searches for validation, validity -- and being lasting, that sort of thing. I think I was referencing Mike Ness's solo record.

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

And yeah, country is very appealing. And at some point you think, "Oh, those are the real guys." Yeah, they are.

And the blues guys are real guys too.

Unfortunately, they're all dying. When they're gone, that's about it.

Hey, we still have Robert Cray.

Yep.

He's the real blues.

Uh… he can play. But it's not my cup of tea.

Oh. Eric Clapton your cup of tea?

No, no. I can't even think of any -- John Lee Hooker is the last one that I could really take my hat off to.

Are there any other --

R.L. Burnside -- he's still alive, isn't he?

Yeah. I've never heard him. I hear he's awfully good though.

Yeah! Yeah.

Are there any unexplored musical vistas that you think you might want to try in the future?

Won't know until I get there. I think it's important to listen to new music all the time. I do that. It's important to keep sort of fresh. You don't have to be an encyclopedia, but if you keep listening, you'll keep getting different ideas.

Who are you listening to now?

Actually I was listening to a lot of old stuff for the past six months. But of new people, I quite like that new Death Cab for Cutie record. And this guy from San Diego named Tom Brosseau who's got a few independently produced CDs by himself, and this guy Gregory Page who I did some co-writing with. Grant Lee Phillips, who's gonna be on my new record. I love Grant Lee Phillips. He's just so talented.

You mentioned Neko Case. Do you like the New Pornographers?

Not as much as I like Neko's solo stuff. They're a little sort of -- I don't know. Maybe I should listen to the new record, but the last one -- what's it called?

Mass Romantic? Was that the last one? Yeah.

It just kinda sounded a little generic to me. Generic kind of rock.

It did to me the first time I heard it. The second time I listened to it, it sounded like bubblegum melodies pumped through modern equipment. Which I liked! It's kind of like listening to The Turtles, but a NEW version of The Turtles!

(laughs) Nah, I would say that Neko's last record was a huge step forward.

Oooh, I need to hear that.

Blacklisted?

I haven't heard it, no.

Oh! It's spectacular.

Really?

Yes. I would say, you know how Matthew Sweet put out a few records before that Girlfriend?

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

I think that that was his masterpiece. And I think the same thing about Either/Or for Elliott Smith. And Blacklisted. I think Neko could go on to do as good or better records, but this one was the point at which everything kind of converged -- the songwriting, production, she used a lot of the guys from Calexico. Very sort of Western and just beautiful.

Okay. Blacklisted is the name of it?

Mm-hmm.

I'll have to grab that. She has a really good voice. Do your kids like their music?

Do they like my music?

Yeah.

Well, sort of… I guess.

Ha!

They don't say, "Oh Dad, Dad! Play one of your songs for us." That'd be a little too Father Knows Best for me. They like good music though. They like songwriters. They like Aimee Mann and stuff like that, that I like. They don't go for, you know, Britney… Thankfully they got through their boy band phase really quickly.

Yay.

And they don't listen to like black metal.

Wait! What's wrong with black metal? As long as they're not burning down a church or something?

There's nothing wrong with it! I just --

You don't want to hear it in your house.

It's a little too intense for me. The funny thing is that the keyboard player Jamie Muhoberac -- he listens to that ALL the time. He plays such peaceful music on piano and organ and all these keyboards and stuff. He plays on all these different people's records like John Mayer records -- everybody's records. And he's listening to this "JIH-JIH-JIH-JIH-JIH 'ARRR! RAOWR! RAOWR!'"

HA!

He actually made some. He's actually doing a recording right now. And he said he can't do the vocals any place else but in the car. So he goes into his driveway and he goes like, "AAAAAHHH BAH BAH GAH BWAAAAAH! AHHH! GEGAH!"

He's recording a black metal album?

Yeah.

Ha ha!

And I've just got this image of Jamie -- this same Jamie who plays beautiful music -- sitting in his car going, "AAAAAHH! GAH-GAH-GWAAAAAH!"

He records the vocals in the car!?

In his car, yeah. He doesn't wanna be screaming and yelling in his house! It's sort of more private, I guess, for him.

Did you ever think there'd be a day when you'd say, "That music's too loud! Turn down that loud music!"?

Uhhh… yeah! Most of the time, X is too loud. And it was back then.

Oh yeah?

Sure! Those damned guitar players. Not sensible like us bass players.

Did you write those songs on bass? Or on guitar and then teach them to Billy Zoom? Or were they written together or --

I wrote most of it on bass, and that gave Billy a little more room to decide how to voice the chords on his guitar. I would say up until maybe -- I wrote a few songs on acoustic guitar for More Fun in the New World.

Why did he leave the band originally?

I think he was just burnt out. He was tired from touring and making records and touring and making records. It just wasn't that satisfying.

Did he do anything after X music-wise?

Recently he's done a pretty good number of productions. Nothing major-label, but he has his own studio now and he does a lot of bands in Orange County, which is where he lives. Does a lot of punk rock and surf stuff. I'm sure probably way too many bands that want to be Blink-182.

Did you read -- I know you're quoted -- I think you're probably quoted a lot in both of them, come to think of it, but did you read both of those books that came out about the L.A. scene this past year?

No, I didn't.

Oh, you didn't?

No.

Oh. I was gonna ask you if people were remembering things accurately -- if they were accurate depictions of the scene.

I know one thing is that they didn't do a lot of fact-checking, which I think is really poor. They did not do enough fact-checking, because somebody read me this piece about Exene laying in a bed with a swastika -- Nazi flag over our bed or something like that. Uhh -- no, she didn't. That wasn't the Exene I knew! She may have had some Nazi memorabilia, like a pin or something that she found in a thrift store in Florida, but no.

Were you interviewed for both of them? I read them a while back; I can't --

What -- the one for Darby and --

I know you were quoted a lot in that one, the Darby one.

Darby was a sweet guy. But I love the fact that they've tried to make a movie about Darby several times and they just can't get it together, and I think, "Oh, thank God." Thank God they're not gonna be making a movie of that, because they'll just get it all wrong. They'll just screw it up and they'll get the wrong guy, and he'll be hunky instead of like soft and squishy like Darby really was.

And it'll turn into like The Doors by Oliver Stone?

(laughs)

You could see it as that though.

What?

You could see it turning into that though.

Yeah!

Because he's such a mythical character now.

Yeah. He was just really confused. He was pretty smart, but he definitely had some big problems.

You knew he was in trouble, right?

Oh, yeah. And I told him to try to move somewhere else, you know, and just get out of the scene instead of being depressed about the way it was going. I mean, he never talked openly about his sexuality -- it was always this big secret, but I kinda knew, through Lorna and stuff. She's the one they ought to make a movie about because she's kinda disappeared completely.

Really?

Yep. Nobody has any idea where she is.

Wow!

In all of the books, in all of the interviews, in all the stuff that's come about the Germs, she is MIA.

Interesting.

She was last living in New York, but no one knows where she is.

Interesting!

I know! There's something for your investigative reporting.

Oh, I'll find her. I'll find her and I'll INTERVIEW her!

HA!

That's what I do!

Well, that would be a huge coup.

I'll just look under "Doom" in the phone book. How hard can that be?

Heh heh. Sounds like one of those '40s films with Barbara Stanwyck. Yeah, they even tried to find her to get clearances for re-released stuff, to pay them money for different things, but nobody knows where she is. Pretty wild.

Crazy.

Yeah.

I guess it's probably not too hard to find Pat Smear. You could probably hunt him down.

Yeah, Pat's pretty available.

He's kind of out there. Okay, is there anything else that should be in this about what you're doing now or what you want L.A. --

CITIZINE readers to know?

Yeah!

I don't know. Hmm…. I think we've covered a lot of ground. I would imagine that since CITIZINE leans pretty heavily towards the punk rock world, if there's anything you can think about that you want to talk about in terms of X or anything.

Oh. I didn't want to -- I don't know. I'm always kind of -- Okay, let me ask that then --

I'm not leery about talking about X. I'm not protective of that or feel as though that's the only thing that I will be known for.

Okay. But that's why I didn't want to harp on that.

No. I mean, it can get sort of annoying, just like, "Oh yeah…."

Yeah, that's what I mean. But at the same time, you were part of something -- you created something legendary.

I guess so.

So?

You know, you certainly don't think about that. I think if you did, you'd be a real turd! If you walked around thinking, "Yep. I was part of something legendary! Heh heh. I'm a legend! I'm a legend."

You know some of the people from your very same scene are like that though.

Get outta here.

I certainly --

Don't name names!

Okay. I certainly got that feeling when I talked to a former singer for two popular bands, one of which was Black Flag and one of which was a band he formed after Black Flag. I really got that feeling when I talked to him!

Who, Keith Morris?

Yeah! Is that not what he's like? Maybe it was just a bad night, but I really got that feeling from him.

Maybe.

But hey! You said, "Don't name names!" I could be talking about the DC3!

You could be talking about Dez.

Oh, yeah! I don't know. It's hard to --

I don't know. People can do what they want. I like Keith Morris, even if he is kinda full of himself. The funny thing about -- I would say the thing that's most misunderstood about that scene is that nobody knew what punk rock was at the time. They knew what they didn't want to do, but it wasn't like, "This is punk rock." Punk rock was pretty much anything that wasn't part of the establishment and wasn't slow and been around and dull.

The phrase used to be "used, old and in the way." That was a big phrase back then because everyone did feel as though their options were limited by the fact that there were so many bands that had been around for ten or twenty years. It was like "Could you clear out a little bit and give us some room a little bit?" Which is certainly the case nowadays! However, it was an issue even back when punk was beginning. And punk wasn't dull. It was just like a rock and roll band. If there was anything I think to me that was punk rock, it was something that was rock and roll. Meaningful, fast, short. There was no very -- like there is now, there's a very strict definition of "punk."

That kinda started with the Ramones. It's that Ramones sound sped up.

Now it's even been more refined. But back then, it was just anything that was kind of adventurous and trying to figure something out.

Yeah, that really doesn't describe punk rock today.

No! No, it doesn't. And that's why I liked a lot of bands that were on Dangerhouse. Dangerhouse, even though they were a bunch of fucking cheaters and liars --

Were they?

Oh yeah. They burnt everybody. But they did record a lot of really great bands, like the Deadbeats and Black Randy and the Metro Squad -- bands that had a high kind of kitsch factor. The element that Blondie had.

Didn't Dangerhouse put out something in the past 5-10 years that was live stuff by four bands? The Germs, the Weirdos -- I ask because now I -- were the Plugz on Dangerhouse? Would they have been on this thing?

No.

Oh, it's the Skulls. That's what I'm thinking of. The Skulls. Alright. I've never heard the Plugz. That's upsetting.

They have a record called Electrify Me.

Is it good?

It's representative of what they did.

Is it findable these days? Did anyone ever put it out on CD or anything?

Mmm, I don't know. I don't really know. Of course I haven't listened to it in forever, but I remember it being cool.

CONTINUED ...

Interview with John Doe of X
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